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Learning Spells
http://forums.wohp.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4385		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Learning Spells
I had a couple questions about learning NWN spells.

My character completed his first year at Hogwarts and is now level 3.
He has spells listed as provided by the NWN engine that he should be able to cast, but needs to create the scrolls to satisfy the WoHP. There seem to be spells though that aren't listed in the spell book for this year. One in particular is the cleric's spell "Stone Bones" which I believe any cleric would have at this level and two others are Searing Light and Cure Serious Wounds which he gains via his chosen domains.

In the case of Stone Bones, should my character seek out other non-required reading to learn how to create this scroll? This spell is just an example as there my be others, it's just the first spell I noticed since my character tends to lean toward healing and defensive spells when I choose his NWN spell list.

As far as the Domain spells, will he not be able to learn these scrolls until he's the appropriate level/year in which every cleric learns these spells? I chose the Healing and Sun domains because they fit the character well not for the spells, however it is somewhat disappointing to find he won't benefit from the affinity he has to these areas.


EDIT: Well it looks like my first question was more or less answered here http://forums.wohp.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4167, but I'm still wondering about the other two spells.
Author:  Calan [ Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Divine and domain spells -should- be granted for free, it is only the arcane spells that require scrolls. The intention was for every spell to require a scroll, but that hasn't happened yet.... who knows.
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Ah well, I'd like to report the scripts are working for clerics now too...or so it seems. I tried casting a few 2nd level spells and couldn't. I don't remember which specifically. It gave me the "you must cast from a scroll first" message for the ones I did and I've successfully created, learned and cast Cure Moderate Wounds.

When I get home I'll try to test all of my spells, specifically those castable by both arcane and divine casters versus those exclusive to divine casters.

It didn't require me to cast-from-scroll for any cantrips or first level spells, but I thought that was intentional and true of all classes (maybe not?).
Author:  Charity [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
When playing a Druid I could cast some spells freely, like summon badger, but others I had to learn. I think light is always free to cast. Healing spells seem to be free. Not all cantrips are free; I had to learn the attack cantrips. I think after first level spells you have to study them all. That's only what I've surmised though, so I could be wrong.

I'm totally guessing here, but when you have a domain spell it usually appears at the bottom of the spell list on the new spell level it's considered. It also appears again on the actual normal spell level. So the domain spell may be considered a slightly different spell than the original. The only way to find out I guess is to try and learn it early and see if you can.
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
OK, so here are my results.

Y = Castable
N = Need Scroll First
U = I don't remember if I tried this one before making the scroll

Aid - Y
Bull's Strength - N
Cure Moderate Wounds - U
Darkness - N
Endurance - N
Hold Person - N
Lesser Dispel - N
Remove Paralysis - Y
Lesser Restoration - Y
Resist Elements - N
Silence - Y
Sound Burst - Y
Summon Creature II - N
Eagle's Splendor - N
Owl's Wisdom - N
Fox's Cunning - N
Ultravision - Y
Negative Engery Ray - Y
Find Traps - N
Inflict Moderate Wounds - Y
Find Traps - N
Stone Bones - N
Cure Serious Wounds - N
Searing Light - N

My conclusion, at least for second level spells, is that the spells that can be cast by a sorc/wiz I need to get the scroll first. This seems odd b/c the spells also cast by a bard (also arcane) I can cast without the scroll.

Unfortunately I don't have any information on the earlier levels yet since I ended up choosing cleric type spells to memorize as a result of RP'ing my character and I didn't have any issue with the few I chose.
Author:  Calan [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
lol...

Divine spells = free to cast
Arcane spells = need a scroll

Any spell taken on character creation is also free, arcane or not.
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
How do you tell the difference? It's not in the description.

I generally don't play casters in NWN so I don't know spell casting in depth. My understanding was that a spell didn't have an arcane or divine aspect, the caster did. Sorcerers, Wizards and Bards all cast using arcane powers, while Clerics, Paladins, Druids and Rangers all called upon divine powers to cast. (i.e. a cleric casts "Divine Bull's Strength" and a wizard casts "Arcane Bull's Strength") That's why divine casters can cast any spell and not have chance of failure due to armor, because they aren't calling upon the arcane.

Also, I definitely can't cast Cure Serious Wounds and Searing Light even though I should be able to by domain. I would try to create the scroll and see if it would ignore the class year restriction in this case, but my character has yet to discover the recipe.
Author:  prgreenhaw [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
That's not -completely- true, Calan...

Some Cleric buff spells, such as Clarity, need to be cast from a spell scroll first, as well as a few healing spells. However, most devine spells are learned for free, that's certainly true. It honestly depends on the spell though. For example, Darkness and Hold Monster have to be learned. *shrug* I haven't had a problem with any offensive spells yet, I seem to be able to cast those perfectly fine. I -do- hope that, eventually, all spells will have to be 'learned', either through homework or some other means. But for now, the system is more than okay with me. It's all just RP, anyway. =)

Edit: Spells themselves are Divine/Arcane. Otherwise, you'd be able to take one level as a Cleric, and then the rest as a Wizard, and ignore the armor penalties, wouldn't you? As for the Domains... I myself have been unable to cast Domain spells immediately. It's no big deal, you don't even neccessarily have to find the ingredients to create the scroll, most likely. You've already taken the Domain, there must be a RPable reason for having done so. Just let a DM know that your character is practicing that particular spell (better have a good reason for your character all of a sudden 'knowing' about that spell's existance, though...), RP with a few dice-rolls to supplement a few times, and boom. You should get the scroll. I'm not trying to speak for the DMs, but that's what I got from reading this Topic: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2303.

I apologize if I misconstrued the information presented, but again, that's what it sounds like to me.
Author:  CircusClown [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Clarity, Darkness, and Hold Monster are all arcane type spells.

There is no in game descriptor as far as I recall that tells you this (at least in your spellbook, perhaps there is on scrolls) but simply put if it can be cast by a sorc/wiz then it is Arcane. If it cannot, it is Divine.
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
prgreenhaw wrote:
Edit: Spells themselves are Divine/Arcane. Otherwise, you'd be able to take one level as a Cleric, and then the rest as a Wizard, and ignore the armor penalties, wouldn't you?


Not at all.

I just tested it in game. You learn spells when you level so each spell in your book is associated with that level gain and that class. If you take 4 levels of cleric and then 4 levels of wizard you don't get to cast the same spells a level 8 cleric or wizard would. You get to cast the spells a level 4 cleric AND a level 4 wizard get to cast. I don't know why you would, you can totally have the same spells listed twice in your spell book, once under cleric and once under wizard.

There are tabs at the top of your spell book to select the class you want, then below that the spell level. I picked Bull's Strength from Cleric and then Bull's Strength from Wizard and cast them wearing full plate and a tower shield. The wizard version failed due to arcane spell failure, the cleric version did not.


Edit: So from a scripting perspective I have to believe these are two completely different spells and would each have to be listed in whatever script you want applied to every cast of quote-unquote Bull's Strength used in the module.


This has ultimately lead down a path I didn't really mean for it to. I really just wanted to know how to identify spells I can be sure will be available to my character.

I know from reading the bios here many of you are very creative and able to make in depth character backgrounds that sound like real people out of the recesses of your mind. I, on the other hand, am very analytical and most of my RP ideas come directly from the game environment. I can't just come up with ideas, I scour the pages of the NWN manual looking for skills, spells and feats that spark an idea for a character or character trait and build from there. Finding out that the cornerstone of my whole thought process has been barred to me is devastating.

I do my best not to let it detour me. My goal in the OP was to try to catch it before it does.
Author:  DarkRes [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Divine and Arcane are two completely different styles or methods of casting. Divine, applies to clerics, and druids, etc. They in NWN terms gain their magic as a gift from the gods or the land. While Arcane, is well, your typical Wizard or Sorc. They access their magic in a different way. So essentially a Cleric's Bull's strength isn't the same as a Wizard's, because of that fact.

While, Clerics and Druids get a bonus of being able to wear armor to cast, The arcane casters do not, unless you take Still spell. Just because you multi-class in both Divine and Arcane does not mean that the penalties for casting Arcane spells in armor is negated.

Divine casting runs on wisdom, for any type of bonus to your Spell's power. Where Wizard's run off Intelligence, and Sorc's Charisma. So, you will see two or more different tabs in your spellbook, to depict that they are each seperate from eachother. Taking levels in Cleric, helps further your knowledge in Divine magic, (Even if you can get some of the same spells through arcane. NWN recognizes it as different because of the methods it was gained) on the contrast taking levels in Arcane furthers your progress in learning the Arcane method of casting.

On terms of needing to learn the spells, it's always good to check your school books. Chances are if you find the spell listed, you are going to have to make and learn the scroll (By casting it, tapping it with your wands unique power, or using the Wizard's Learn scroll option) That is the easiest way to tell.

On ways to check whether or not the spell is arcane or divine is actually really simple.

You can enter your spellbook, select the spell. You'll notice a little question mark. Click it you should see this.

Image

It breaks it down to which class, and which level of casting is required for that class to cast the spell. For example, Bull's strength requires level two spell level (Note that is not level 2. But actually Level 3 class level, also you have to have three levels of the specific class to actually gain access. Two levels of wizard and one level of cleric will not give you level two spells in either area of casting)

Hopefully this can clear some things up, if not I really suggest this website:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

It is essentially the bible on how NWN works.
Author:  Charity [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
I think the HP spell system treats a spell that is both arcane and divine as one spell. I'm pretty sure that I've learned darkness once and then been able to cast it for either for example when I was multiclass Druid 3/Wiz 3.

An easy way to tell if a spell is arcane or divine if you're playing a Wizard is to try and learn it. But that's only if you're a Wizard. Divine spells can't be learned. To actually get them in your HP spellbook you have to cast the scroll.
Author:  prgreenhaw [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Lol, I actually screwed up. Spells gained through your -class- determines whether or not they're arcane or divine.

Just to clarify though, I wasn't suggesting it was actually possible to take levels in Cleric and gain the ability to cast arcane spells with no armor penalties. =) I was trying to give an example of D&D reasoning and logic.

And what do you mean, your path for creativity has been barred? I do almost the exact same thing you do. To be honest, most of my backstories come from when I'm not playing the game, and I think up an excellent idea that fits with the character's current demeanor, making sure it's completely ICly reasonable, of course. I didn't jump onto the server thinking, "Okay, this is Saroph and he comes from this type of family, and these things happened to him, blah blah blah...". *shrug* I don't see how the inability to cast a few spells without first gaining the knowledge ICly 'bars' you from RPability. Hell, in my mind Saroph is a kick-ass Wizard, but we know the truth. =P But that doesn't stop me from RPing him as such, and especially RPing him -thinking- as much. ^.^

Simply put, RP is key on this server. Just have fun with it!! It could actually be a -good- thing that your character is having trouble accessing those spells for which he has an affinity for. (i.e. Domain Spells) I mean, I could think of so many ways to RP that out. Personally, I'd make it like... a small ambition of my character, to push himself to know those spells. And because of that hard work, those spells are just that much stronger. Or you could definitely think up something else, I'm just saying that it's not the end of the world, and you should never, ever let that get you down, especially on this server.

Anyway, sorry for my boo-boo in the previous post, and I -really- do hope you have fun, even without current access to your Domains, and a few other spells. =)
Author:  NeoMandalore [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
I'd like to RP more, but I really don't know where to begin when it comes to interacting with other people. In games I've never done anything other than react to the situation presented me. I of course try to make with the pleasentries and such for starters. Personally I never had much use for high school. I went, I learned, I went home.

When I'm playing my cleric I always start thinking "Gah! Can I get some multiple choice dialog over here?!"

I do plan to keep at it, but as far as working with a dm to learn spells, I'm not sure I've ever seen one. Wait...there was one instance with that jokester spirit that haunts Hogworts...grr what's that guys name?! I've only seen the movies so far and he wasn't in them.
Author:  Banana Pancakes [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Spells
Peeves the poltergeist!
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