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 Post subject: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:05 am 
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Alright, so first off I just want to apologize to everyone that you haven't been seeing many events/classes coming from me. Things have been busy, they're still busy, and they're going to stay busy for a bit. Probably won't die down until the Holidays come around. It's just how this time of the year works in my particular Profession. I've spent what free time I've had just relaxing, because to be frank, when I am busy it's unfathomably stressful. Not to display arrogance or anything, but it's true.

Now- I want to first explain that there is some frustration from myself. I've noticed that a lot of people have been logging in simply to face-check, and then logging off. This is frustrating on both a Player level, and even a DM level; and for not only myself. There are a few issues with this:

1. Logging in to face-check or see if events are happening, then logging out, gives no chance or opportunity for an event to happen.

2. If you took the time to poke your face in, and then immediately log, it can somewhat infer to everyone on that you wanted to RP, you're just not interested in RPing with any of the people currently on. On a sub note with this, people need to avoid conforming to their cliques and going directly into RP with those specific people through meta-gaming, simply because it is damaging to the server.

3. If you only want to log on when things are happening, you're going to find yourself not logging on very much. Now that's not to be confused with things are never going to happen! This is to say that we are not a server that constantly runs events all day, every day. As much as I'm sure many of the DMs would love to, we simply don't have the time. We want to see Players driving the RP a lot too, and watching the unique creations that come from that! I'm also going to elaborate on this further...

Keep in mind that whither or not you're logging on to see if your significant other is playing, your best friend(s), your group, housemates, specific RP-intrigue, or if a DM is on-- Other people see this, or they get tired of sitting around and watching people do it, and they start to do it. Before you know it, you have nearly an entire server face-checking all day and no one ever logs on. This is a big issue when the server occassionally hits it's dead numbers (0 players on) because everyone wants to play, or checks the server, and since they see 0 online they don't bother getting on... Then you might get 10 players all monitoring the number 0 because no one wants to be the first person to suck it up and sit on the server alone... Also keep in mind that just because the person(s) sitting on the server aren't your best-friend, your boyfriend/girlfriend, or part of your group- this doesn't mean you can't find some of the best RP possible with them. For example: If you're character is uncomfortable with Lance, scared of him, or hates him- even if that silent brooding idiot is the only one on the server, it doesn't mean you can't go RP with him. Even if it's anything from a stare-fest, to an awkward avoidance sitting near each other, or outright confrontation. Who knows!~ You might find that the passing of RP become enjoyable and goes somewhere unexpected. [Now if it's just Cray sitting on the server, I don't blame you for not logging on.]


As for myself, I really want to start running more events and classes. I've been told my events are a lot of fun, and I've honestly missed creating them. HOWEVER...

- I plan on doing them slowly but surely, to increase as the curriculum nears, and then I will be doing a lot while the curriculum is around. Both to give a break to everyone who will presumably be working like Bees at the new Curriculum, and I expect a high-population during that time which is ideal for events. It will also be a good way to group all the new characters that get made for the curriculum, and get them introduced to other students.

- Unless it's for one of my really big events currently brewing in this devious noggin, I won't be announcing it on Facebook/Forums. For the somewhat small-scale events, random happenings, and regular classes- I will be doing them on a whim for those that are logged in to the server at the time I decide to do them. That's not out of spite or anything, but I've noticed a lot of people only logging in for the announcement of events and logging directly afterwards, and to be completely honest with everyone I want to see people logging in to log in and RP; to have fun. Not logging in to the sound of a dinner bell being rang. So hopefully if I'm running things more sporadically people will be logged on more of their own will as to be available for these events.

Again, I apologize for my business and hope that I've at least been useful by being around to answer questions and help bafoons that break Cadogan or get somehow glitched into a wall...

I hope that we can see a large scale escalation of the server with upcoming events, the return of busy bee DMs and old-school players, a new and amazing curriculum, and this influx of incredible RPers that have given us the wonderful pleasure of welcoming them to our server.

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The Brain - Skylar Dune - Seventh Year
The Athlete - Lance Silverston - Seventh Year
The Basket Case - Drathil Vortec - Seventh Year

"Everybody prefers to see a nut - they're more fascinating." - Penn Jillette


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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:08 am 
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Also, please please please feel free to poke me at any time IG or over Forums about a Class you'd like to see ran. Ex: If you need Conjur, and you know several others need Conjur, -let me know you want the class-. I'm only a mean grump 99.9% of the time~ I'm working on it, I swear.



I swear... I don't bite. And if I do, it's cute.



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The Criminal - Sliver Vortec - Expelled
The Brain - Skylar Dune - Seventh Year
The Athlete - Lance Silverston - Seventh Year
The Basket Case - Drathil Vortec - Seventh Year

"Everybody prefers to see a nut - they're more fascinating." - Penn Jillette


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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:14 am 
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Necromancer367 wrote:
Also, please please please feel free to poke me at any time IG or over Forums about a Class you'd like to see ran. Ex: If you need Conjur, and you know several others need Conjur, -let me know you want the class-. I'm only a mean grump 99.9% of the time~ I'm working on it, I swear.



I swear... I don't bite. And if I do, it's cute.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 am 
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I'm no RP and/or DM expert, but I'd like to give my opinion on the subject. Even if this is my very own opinion, I'm quite sure I'll express others' thoughts here. So please keep that in mind.
The idea here is: we go blind most of the time, with just our own opinion about how things are good, doing things as we think they should be... until someone tells you that what's good for you is bad for him. So let's share our opinions for a minute here :wink:


First, concerning the face-check situation...
I'll be clear: why in the first place have you removed the possibility to see who is online on this server?
Because... you wanted people to log in without knowing who's online.
And this is what they do: they log in to see who's online. But then they see that the players online are not the ones with whom they can or want to RP, and they log out.
Maybe it would be better to let people see who's online before logging?
IMHO, I think what you'd get would be: players seeing another character they like and with whom they want to RP and then log in. Yeah, sure, if they don't see someone they like they won't log. Maybe...
But with the current situation, they log out instantly anyway. So, it's clear that the current solution, to hide the online players, isn't working. Or, more precisely, has side issues, the face-check. And that's even worse because it hurts players' feelings.

I think you'll have to trust players here...
Trust them to log if they see someone they like or just log this "someone" to someone else, or engage in RP with a complete stranger or someone their character dislikes.
Anyway, I think this is the current solution that "damages the server". Because you won't change players, guys, you have to realize that. Don't ask for perfect players. We're only human.

Oh, by the way, I don't do that, log in and then log out. But sure, I can relate. I'm sometimes semi-AFK because, well, my character dislikes the other online characters and/or just doesn't want to talk to them...
Because... here's the second point.
You're asking people to RP with people they don't want to RP with or don't see how to RP with...
You're asking a lot.
In fact, you ask people to play their character with coherence, to stay as much as IC as possible, as a general standard... but on the other hand you ask them to go RP with characters their own character wouldn't talk to.
I know it's a game. I know we need sometimes to RP with characters our own character dislikes. And that could be great RP. But we can't be asked to do that all the time. That demands to be in top condition; because if you're tired, if you had a rough day, maybe you're not up to RPing an antagonistic RP with somebody. Maybe you already had your share of conflicts during the day... Again, we can't be perfect and awesome all the time.

My point could also stand for the "I'll run events but I'm not saying when because I don't trust people to come if there are no events." Do you really think it will make people come more often? I don't think so. It will give them no reason to come, even for these events, because they won't know. So they won't come at all.
My point is, again: trust the players. If they are coming and engage in RP with other players, they will come back, believe me. Giving them an incentive with an event or knowing who's online, well, that's just a good way to do it and to not treat them as "bad" players...

Lastly, you must understand that the ones who suffer from these IMHO bad game design ideas are the good players, the fellow RPers, the "regular" players. It's like DRM: are they really preventing piracy? No, but there sure are a pain in the [censored] for the gamers who legally own their games...

And if that means we will lose the bad players, the ones who would facecheck, the ones who would come only for events and not to just RP around with people? well, so be it. I think we may even lose them quicker... All in all, it would be for the best.

(Are they really "bad" players? I even doubt that, but nevermind...)


Finally, you use Lance as an example. I think it's a good example and I think it could be interesting that someone gives you its honest point of view about Lance. Word of caution: I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying it's just my opinion.

Sometimes I log in and, let's say, there is only Lance online...
Great... :roll:
Now, before saying anything else, I must add I understand that Lance is a kind of asocial character. Kinda hard not to get that! :lol:
When my character was first-year, she was frightened by the "gargoyle" standing in the Main Hall. She had shivers passing by him. That was cool.
But it gets old really fast.
Anyway, because of some IC events, she tried to talk to Lance, to make acquaintances.
Lance shut her down...
Several times...
I would have been okay for being shut down once, maybe twice, but he did it every time.

Now, as I said, I understand he's asocial. But hey, as said earlier, it's a game. Yeah, you want to stay true to your character, but you have to make compromises. You can't shut down people that are trying to RP with your character. Even if your character is asocial/antagonistic/whatever. It's a really hard thing to balance: being ICly an [censored] but also being a fellow player, understanding how to make people feel comfortable with RPing with your [censored] character.
We're in a game, so that means we are making compromises to RP with people that IRL we wouldn't. But there is a limit to perseverance and politeness that we need to keep in mind.
You say "it will be a stare-fest", but do you really think it's funny? I mean, for the other person? Now, maybe you could do that in a way that it is interesting for the other player/character, I don't know if that's even possible, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's doable. However, from my experience, that's not the case.
To the point where I am not even remotely interested in RPing with you and my character is not even remotely interested anymore in talking to you. My time is precious, as everybody else, and, frankly, how you RP Lance is basically making me feel like I'm wasting my time.
Again, maybe it's fun for you. But it's no fun to me.

If you were another player, and not so frequently online, I think nobody would care. But you're also a DM and with that comes responsibilities I think... I could say insight, more precisely: you should know what's good for the server and what's bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't play characters that are asocial, but as a DM, when you have the only character online and he's asocial to the point where there is no way someone will RP with you, well, maybe you should play another character? Or not being online as a PC but only as a DM? Or at least not being in the Main Hall but in the OOC/AFK room? I don't know.
So, sorry to tell you that but "if that silent brooding idiot is the only one on the server", it means you can't go RP with him.
I don't ask for Lance to become the happy funny ambassador, but I gave to you my honest impression of Lance (bear in mind that I'm not one of the old players that may have known Lance for years now, things may differ). Maybe you think he's approachable. He's not -at least, in my opinion.
Maybe you can come to a point where you can RP him as he is but still giving hints about how to interestingly RP with him? Maybe it can be done OOCly or by tells? It would help a lot, giving somehow the keys to understand how to RP with Lance... At least to ask players if their feelings are not hurt (because they may), if they understand that it's your character, and not you -as a player-, that is shutting them down.

And we aren't perfect player, right? So when a character is acting in a specific way, it taints how we perceive its player. Human nature... Even if we are trying hard to differentiate the two, still, a bit of the hard feelings will pass on the player.


Also, you're saying "please ask me for events"...
I like how Reebober and Calan are doing it (caveat: it's been a long time I haven't seen Yendys, so if I'm not mentioning Yendys or, in fact, anybody else, don't take offence, please!): they shout first, asking players. They make their presence obvious.
Because, again, as a DM, it's up to you to say "I'm available, please bother me!". If you ask "hey does someone want an event?" I'm sure no one will say "Meh, nope! Events suck!".
Maybe people already engaged in their own RP won't join but maybe there are people left over...
So my point is: you should ask, you should be the one to make the first step.
Because players are polite and won't dare disturb DM.

(It's good by the way that you guys remind us from time to time that we can use the DM channel to ask questions and ask for rulings. Because we all tend to forget and politely try to not disturb you whatsoever, I think...)

Sorry if that may feel as a rant.
It's not, it's just a critic but that doesn't mean you're not doing a great job. It's just my 2 cents, guys, and, by all means, please don't let this pull you down. I know when you are working on something and you hear critic, you may somehow feel betrayed and be less enthusiastic about what you're doing. That's not the point here. You're doing an amazing job, really. And I can't tell how super excited I am by the update you're announcing! Huge kudos for that! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Eleonor wrote:
very long, much words

The issue we were having when we removed the ability to check who was on the server was that people were never logging in. At least now we can all see who it is that's face checking(before, calan could see it, so...yeah, admins knew who you were), so we can tell them that it's not cool. It's about accountability, and if you're going to face check, you will be aware that others can see you doing it. And what you said about only getting on if you see someone your character likes is the exact issue. I've had pretty awesome RP with people I wouldn't necessarily have put Sam in the "friends" camp with, like that one time he and Shaant got to talking and turned into a particularly odd set of bros. If I'd checked the who's online and said "well, no Cray, Jade, Roo or Ronni, I'm outta here" that might never have happened, and they'd be continuing to regard each other with neutrality.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:04 pm 
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I'm going to attempt to dissect this. Not as a retort, but just to explain some things that apparently aren't very clear. Again, no offense is meant, just as I took no offense to what you said. :D

I hope I'm able to make some things more clear to you, and vise versa! But let's also try to keep this on topic! Discussing how Lance is RPed probably has nothing to do with my post regarding future classes and how I plan on holding them through personal preference as a DM of this server. :P

Eleonor wrote:
First, concerning the face-check situation...
I'll be clear: why in the first place have you removed the possibility to see who is online on this server?
Because... you wanted people to log in without knowing who's online.
And this is what they do: they log in to see who's online. But then they see that the players online are not the ones with whom they can or want to RP, and they log out.
Maybe it would be better to let people see who's online before logging?
IMHO, I think what you'd get would be: players seeing another character they like and with whom they want to RP and then log in. Yeah, sure, if they don't see someone they like they won't log. Maybe...
But with the current situation, they log out instantly anyway. So, it's clear that the current solution, to hide the online players, isn't working. Or, more precisely, has side issues, the face-check. And that's even worse because it hurts players' feelings.


I'll let Calan answer this one. [Or Yendys! She already got to it, it seems!]

Eleonor wrote:
I think you'll have to trust players here...
Trust them to log if they see someone they like or just log this "someone" to someone else, or engage in RP with a complete stranger or someone their character dislikes.
Anyway, I think this is the current solution that "damages the server". Because you won't change players, guys, you have to realize that. Don't ask for perfect players. We're only human.


We're not distrusting the players here, in anything we do, I'd like to think. But you can't really say "Trust them to log if they see someone they like or just log this "someone" to someone else, or engage in RP with a complete stranger or someone their character dislikes." and then later down in this explain that it's asking too much of someone to RP with a character they don't like. That's just one big contradiction. :wink:

Eleonor wrote:
Oh, by the way, I don't do that, log in and then log out. But sure, I can relate. I'm sometimes semi-AFK because, well, my character dislikes the other online characters and/or just doesn't want to talk to them...
Because... here's the second point.
You're asking people to RP with people they don't want to RP with or don't see how to RP with...
You're asking a lot.
In fact, you ask people to play their character with coherence, to stay as much as IC as possible, as a general standard... but on the other hand you ask them to go RP with characters their own character wouldn't talk to.
I know it's a game. I know we need sometimes to RP with characters our own character dislikes. And that could be great RP. But we can't be asked to do that all the time. That demands to be in top condition; because if you're tired, if you had a rough day, maybe you're not up to RPing an antagonistic RP with somebody. Maybe you already had your share of conflicts during the day... Again, we can't be perfect and awesome all the time.


I don't understand how it's asking a lot of someone to literally do what they logged in to do, RP. If all you ever want to do is RP with people you're IC and OOC friends with, then the server will end segregated into cliques. :?

Lance, for instance, can and has RPed with people he dislikes. In fact, he absolutely hated Xander more than most the school combined, but lately he can be seen tutoring Xander at dueling and talking to him; even exchanging nods and greetings. This is because of RP that happened between the two that I'm not going to unveil. He no longer hates Xander.

RP in general should be your de-stressor. If you're getting stressed from RPing with certain people on a video game, then to be honest you might need to not take it so seriously. Enjoy the -RP-, with whoever it is with, or whatever it is. If you're tired and had a rough day, and you're not up to RPing with an antagonist, go take a breather. Do whatever it is that does help you calm down. Because by being on the server you're saying that you're available for RP with whoever. Not just with one single person.

That's my two cents on the matter.

Eleonor wrote:
My point could also stand for the "I'll run events but I'm not saying when because I don't trust people to come if there are no events." Do you really think it will make people come more often? I don't think so. It will give them no reason to come, even for these events, because they won't know. So they won't come at all.
My point is, again: trust the players. If they are coming and engage in RP with other players, they will come back, believe me. Giving them an incentive with an event or knowing who's online, well, that's just a good way to do it and to not treat them as "bad" players...


I'm.. honestly confused here? You told me what I'm wanting to do as a personal preference is a bad idea. But then you deter to your slogan of 'trust the players' (Which it's not a distrust of the players, it's simply rewarding the people that are RPing on the server at the given time. It's not a spite to those not online.). And then you completely derail to "If they are coming and engage in RP with other players, they will come back, believe me." which has nothing to do with my desire to run events without announcement on Facebook/Forums (There will of course be announcement on server), if anything it's supporting my theory that it's only rewarding to the players that come to RP with other players, insuring they come back... Then you basically agree with me saying giving them this 'incentive' with an event is a good way to do it and treats them like good players by rewarding them for actually playing.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or mean here, but I'm just honestly confused with that one. You went 3 different directions with it. Sorry!

Eleonor wrote:
Lastly, you must understand that the ones who suffer from these IMHO bad game design ideas are the good players, the fellow RPers, the "regular" players. It's like DRM: are they really preventing piracy? No, but there sure are a pain in the [censored] for the gamers who legally own their games...


This felt completely left field. 8O I'm not sure what you meant by 'bad game design', or where this was going, or how it relates to piracy. If you're trying to infer that it's bad game design to remove seeing the player list, and that it's just punishing the good players, then I don't follow. Good players don't need a Player List. If you want to log on, you simply log on. Who's on, what's going on, is all irrelevant. :D

Eleonor wrote:
And if that means we will lose the bad players, the ones who would facecheck, the ones who would come only for events and not to just RP around with people? well, so be it. I think we may even lose them quicker... All in all, it would be for the best.


All in all, if you -REALLY- want the Player List back then talk to Calan about that one. That discussion isn't honestly relevant to this post and can be handled elsewhere. Shoot him a PM and discuss that with him! And like I said, I'll let him explain his reasoning for that removal.

Eleonor wrote:
Finally, you use Lance as an example. I think it's a good example and I think it could be interesting that someone gives you its honest point of view about Lance. Word of caution: I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying it's just my opinion.

Sometimes I log in and, let's say, there is only Lance online...
Great... :roll:
Now, before saying anything else, I must add I understand that Lance is a kind of asocial character. Kinda hard not to get that! :lol:
When my character was first-year, she was frightened by the "gargoyle" standing in the Main Hall. She had shivers passing by him. That was cool.
But it gets old really fast.
Anyway, because of some IC events, she tried to talk to Lance, to make acquaintances.
Lance shut her down...
Several times...
I would have been okay for being shut down once, maybe twice, but he did it every time.

Now, as I said, I understand he's asocial. But hey, as said earlier, it's a game. Yeah, you want to stay true to your character, but you have to make compromises. You can't shut down people that are trying to RP with your character. Even if your character is asocial/antagonistic/whatever. It's a really hard thing to balance: being ICly an [censored] but also being a fellow player, understanding how to make people feel comfortable with RPing with your [censored] character.
We're in a game, so that means we are making compromises to RP with people that IRL we wouldn't. But there is a limit to perseverance and politeness that we need to keep in mind.
You say "it will be a stare-fest", but do you really think it's funny? I mean, for the other person? Now, maybe you could do that in a way that it is interesting for the other player/character, I don't know if that's even possible, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's doable. However, from my experience, that's not the case.
To the point where I am not even remotely interested in RPing with you and my character is not even remotely interested anymore in talking to you. My time is precious, as everybody else, and, frankly, how you RP Lance is basically making me feel like I'm wasting my time.
Again, maybe it's fun for you. But it's no fun to me.

If you were another player, and not so frequently online, I think nobody would care. But you're also a DM and with that comes responsibilities I think... I could say insight, more precisely: you should know what's good for the server and what's bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't play characters that are asocial, but as a DM, when you have the only character online and he's asocial to the point where there is no way someone will RP with you, well, maybe you should play another character? Or not being online as a PC but only as a DM? Or at least not being in the Main Hall but in the OOC/AFK room? I don't know.
So, sorry to tell you that but "if that silent brooding idiot is the only one on the server", it means you can't go RP with him.
I don't ask for Lance to become the happy funny ambassador, but I gave to you my honest impression of Lance (bear in mind that I'm not one of the old players that may have known Lance for years now, things may differ). Maybe you think he's approachable. He's not -at least, in my opinion.
Maybe you can come to a point where you can RP him as he is but still giving hints about how to interestingly RP with him?



I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude here but I can't figure out a way to explain this nicely. But due to how rarely I've seen you on, I'm going to take your opinion here with a grain of salt. I appreciate it and I will take it into some consideration, but there's a method to my madness here. Also keep in mind that a DM's Character time is a DM's character time. They still represent the server but on an OOC level, they can RP who or what they want ICly as that character. In fact it's only bad RP etiquette to expect forced RP characteristics from THEIR character. It's also relatively off-topic. :P

Eleonor wrote:
Maybe it can be done OOCly or by tells? It would help a lot, giving somehow the keys to understand how to RP with Lance... At least to ask players if their feelings are not hurt (because they may), if they understand that it's your character, and not you -as a player-, that is shutting them down.

And we aren't perfect player, right? So when a character is acting in a specific way, it taints how we perceive its player. Human nature... Even if we are trying hard to differentiate the two, still, a bit of the hard feelings will pass on the player.


In all honesty this is a big "NO". No information should be meta-gamed on via OOC or tells, everything needs to be kept to an IC level. And if you're taking to heart what is, need I remind you the acronym of IC, -In Character-; then to be frank that's just something the person taking offense needs to realize and stop. There's a huge difference between what is IC and what is OOC. I'm far more Drathil OOCly than I am Lance.

Eleonor wrote:
Also, you're saying "please ask me for events"...
I like how Reebober and Calan are doing it (caveat: it's been a long time I haven't seen Yendys, so if I'm not mentioning Yendys or, in fact, anybody else, don't take offence, please!): they shout first, asking players. They make their presence obvious.
Because, again, as a DM, it's up to you to say "I'm available, please bother me!". If you ask "hey does someone want an event?" I'm sure no one will say "Meh, nope! Events suck!".
Maybe people already engaged in their own RP won't join but maybe there are people left over...
So my point is: you should ask, you should be the one to make the first step.
Because players are polite and won't dare disturb DM.


You're misunderstanding my post in this aspect, I think. To make it a bit more clear, let me lay something out. I'm currently on a hiatus. Again, things at work for me are very stressful and long. Sometimes it feels like I only go home to sleep and then I'm back in before I know it. That's why I'm not on DM actively DMing things all the time. But I want to make it available to everyone that if people are desperately wanting a Conjur class for example, just let me know and I'll put it into mind that next time I think I've got free time and will to DM a class, I'll try to do that one. It'll save my the time of having to figure out what to do and what people might want. Sometimes I might just be utterly out of it from work, and asking what people need doesn't cross my mind. Also because usually people are pretty good about telling me what they need, so I'm just highlighting it here. Please also keep in mind that if the DMs ask "What do you guys need", we're usually asking if people need help with an issue, are stuck with something, or have a question while we're on and available. If we always asked "What do you guys want?" then there would never be any surprise.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:05 pm 
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Eleonor wrote:
First, concerning the face-check situation...
I'll be clear: why in the first place have you removed the possibility to see who is online on this server?
Because... you wanted people to log in without knowing who's online.
And this is what they do: they log in to see who's online. But then they see that the players online are not the ones with whom they can or want to RP, and they log out.
Maybe it would be better to let people see who's online before logging?
IMHO, I think what you'd get would be: players seeing another character they like and with whom they want to RP and then log in. Yeah, sure, if they don't see someone they like they won't log. Maybe...
But with the current situation, they log out instantly anyway. So, it's clear that the current solution, to hide the online players, isn't working. Or, more precisely, has side issues, the face-check. And that's even worse because it hurts players' feelings.

I think you'll have to trust players here...
Trust them to log if they see someone they like or just log this "someone" to someone else, or engage in RP with a complete stranger or someone their character dislikes.
Anyway, I think this is the current solution that "damages the server". Because you won't change players, guys, you have to realize that. Don't ask for perfect players. We're only human.


Unfortunately I'm not at a point in my day I can read this whole thread and reply to it all, I only have time for one point so I'm going to hit the ... "Face Checking" I guess we're calling it. And why the player list is scripted to be blank. Which yes, I can be convinced to change, if I knew players weren't abusing it. It was/is my hope that rather than the DMs needing to be all heavy-handed that the players would start policing themselves and explain to each other why face-checking is such a damaging thing to do.

Before I start, any time I say "you" in this reply I'm talking generically, not to you specifically Eleonor. I'm not speaking to anyone in particular. Since I've been away so much lately (which is coming to an end soon, we're on year 7!) I don't even know who is doing this anyway.

"Face checking" is a massive problem, one that is completely and only in the court of the players. It directly affects the playability of the server, and the RP quality, across the board. When there were 10 billion people on NWN roaming the servers it was still an issue, but it didn't have nearly the same impact as it does now. It's not something we're about to ban people over it or anything like that, all we can do is express how harmful it is to not only your character but everyone else's on the server and hope people hear.

I would -love- to trust the players with this one, but the fact is that the playerlist was removed because the players (I'm talking about the players that were around long before you, Eleonor) were proving over and over that they could not be trusted with it. They checked for their clique and/or significant other and logged out. This is so unfair to anyone that's on the server, whether they know it happened or not. People claim they want the little unexpected interactions, the flavor of life, but then log out because their well-known and well-expected buddies aren't there. It's a contradiction. This is NOT [just] a problem with new players, this has been a problem for -years- among players across NWN as a whole. The playerlist was removed quite a while ago because our veteran players were extremely guilty of doing this. In fact, I didn't even script it. The NWNX team scripted it, because they too understand this is a problem for NWN and RP itself, not just WoHP.

Personally, I believe this is a misunderstanding of RP itself. Your characters don't RP with each other, players RP with each other. This, I think, is the core of the misunderstanding. And while I'm sure just about everyone is saying "Well duh, I know that," that's not how they are behaving. They log in to see if anyone is around that "their character has RP with." At that point, you've just excluded even the -possibility- of new RP for your character, based on an assumption. Poof, it's -gone.- Not only that, but you've excluded the possibility of new RP for any other character that's currently on. This is why it's so harmful to RP. Not only yours, but others' as well. It's also simply not realistic. Your character -would- be forced to interact with someone other than their buddy/significant other. Regularly. Go RP that school is requiring it, or something... As a player come up with a reason to RP with another player even if the characters wouldn't naturally. Somehow, branch out. It's what brings the characters and the RP to life, and keeps things unexpected and keeps them from getting stale.

But then it compounds. Because you're not on, others who are face-checking don't log in, and even more new RP opportunity is missed. For your character, for theirs, and for anyone else who's on. It's a sad thing to see happen.

-Then- there is the OOC effect. Because the above is true, when someone logs in, checks for their buddy and then logs out - whether or not the server can see it, or they are checking the player list - they have made a conscious decision not to RP with any other player but their buddy. Not only that, it works the other way around. They have made a conscious decision not to allow those who are on the opportunity to interact with their character. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone log in that I would love to RP with, only to see them log out mere seconds later because they were only looking for their buddy. This is not dynamic RP. This is OOCly crafted story that excludes everyone else, unless you want them in on it. And in my humble opinion, that's unfair.

So that's my feeling on the matter. I just hope that I convinced at least someone that it's in their own best interests for RP to actually stay logged in and explore the -possibility- of new RP before logging back out. No it doesn't always happen. In fact it less often happens than it doesn't. But it is absolutely guaranteed to not happen at all, ever, if you check the playerlist and log out. It only needs to happen a small number of times before it has major impacts to your RP, and the RP of others (which comes right back around to you). I just hope I've made a case for that.

(Aside: Logging in only for DM events is almost damaging for exactly the same reasons, and more damaging in other ways. But that's another conversation.)

I really need to stop... I've used more time than I have available. If I didn't answer any of the other points in the thread it's not because I don't have anything to say, but just because I've already overspent my time... :P

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Kalara Crest, Hufflepuff
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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:36 pm 
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I agree with everything "Eleonor Riverbanks - 2nd year Ravenclaw" said. I might write more when I'm feeling better, but for right now, I just wanted to say that I agreed with her. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:48 am 
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Calan wrote:
Your character -would- be forced to interact with someone other than their buddy/significant other. Regularly. Go RP that school is requiring it, or something... As a player come up with a reason to RP with another player even if the characters wouldn't naturally. Somehow, branch out. It's what brings the characters and the RP to life, and keeps things unexpected and keeps them from getting stale.


I agree wholeheartedly with this. (and all of Calan's post, but this especially!) When I decide to try getting back on again, I'd really love to see this happening more often. It would make a huge difference to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:24 am 
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Hello there! Regarding the face-checking (I love that phrase!), I do it all the time, and I've been doing it for eight years. I do it on EVERY server, you guys have just added an extra step. It's just part of deciding what server to play on, for those of us that play on multiple servers. If you are hard-core dedicated to HP and only play here, then yes, I can understand why you might not do it. But for the rest of us, it's practically a necessity!

I currently have nine servers in my playable server list. I'd have ten if Wanderers of the Western Heartlands ever comes back up! *sniffle* I loved that server! Lots of fun movie references in there, an Indiana Jones, a David Bowie version of the Goblin King from Labyrinth (on a sidenote, my character became infatuated with this particular handsome Goblin King and would often go down to his lair just to admire him... after killing all his little minions, of course. The DM noticed her doing this, possessed the Goblin King, and struck up a special friendship with my character, giving her little prizes and such for visiting him. Now THAT was fun!). Sorry, I digress!

My point being, I have multiple servers that I would currently consider spending my free time on, and I ALWAYS check the player list on EVERY server before logging in. It's kind of like a pre-flight check. It's just part of deciding which server to invest my time in.

If, however, this has become a problem on this particular server, then I have a suggestion... why not disable the internal player list? Is that even possible? And also disable the "So and so has joined as a player/so and so has left as a player" notifications. This would provide a much more ic environment, don't you think? You would have to wander around school to see who all was there, just like real life! And it would make it impossible for people to face-check, and impossible for people to get their feelings hurt by seeing people logging in and out without saying hello or interacting with them. It's just a thought! People might still log quickly after checking out the server, but at least they'd be required to come to the Entrance Hall first and look around, which gives someone the chance to snag them into rp (hopefully!). <3

Love you guys! Thanks for all the work you do! <3 <3 <3

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:30 pm 
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I have no plans on turning off the internal list. Yes it's technically possible, but it would pose other issues as well. I also have no plans on banning anyone who face-checks. I simply believe it's a harmful process for everyone, everywhere, on this server and every other one as well, for reasons I've already stated. So I am attempting to do my part to discourage it and that's as far as it will go. I understand some players are in strong support of this opinion, and others disagree. It's fine to disagree, as long as the RP stays otherwise IC when your characters are logged in.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:05 pm 
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Calan wrote:
It's fine to disagree, as long as the RP stays otherwise IC when your characters are logged in.


Right! Why would the rp be... not ic? Now I'm confused lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:45 pm 
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That's pretty much what I explained in my prior post. Face-checking, in my opinion, does significant OOC harm to IC.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:24 pm 
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Something helpful to RP would be to turn back on the ability to see where other people are if they're in your party. That way people who want to be left alone just don't go in party and you don't check the entrance hall and then have nfi where anyone is.

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 Post subject: Re: Classes/Events - DM Squirrel
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:43 pm 
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Using party locations to find people is metagaming information and has been abused on far too many occasions.

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