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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:11 pm 
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Necromancer367 wrote:
ONE - Wanting to see know who's on and where they are, including DMs.


I think the only way to really solve this issue is just leave it up to the players to be in a party or not. If you want to be seen by other players and things, then join and/or create a party of your own. We don't want it to reach a point like in the past where people use it to meta-game. Which there is a difference between what I am saying and that but I think there is a thread on this already.
The DM part, I honestly don't mind not knowing if a DM is on. That is why you use the DM chat channel or you are able to recognize players that are DMs. I have never been a DM on the server but I can agree with JB, it becomes no fun for them when it comes to a line up of problems/requests.

Necromancer367 wrote:
TWO - PCs feeling as if they can't do anything, under-privileged, meek.


There is not a whole lot you can do with this one. Maybe just trust the players more. I mean, really...do I have to roll 5 d20's and get 15+ in order to learn that spell? Just give players more opportunities and be more lax with things. That is all I know for this one.

Necromancer367 wrote:
THREE - Being confined to the Ministry Basement, away from Post-Grads.


There really isn't a whole lot you can do with this one. Maybe just progress the event faster and get us back to Hogwarts. I think being able to keep the players more occupied with events/mini-events. I think you could even let players handle it, just give them what it is they think they need. I think there is a Dungeons and Dragons group, that is actually pretty genius to do when your bored. If you are looking for event ideas I have a few that don't require burn out of DMs ( you may not even need idea but I am giving you some:)

-Quidditch Matches/Practice/Class (I don't think a lot of people even know how awesome the quidditch system is on the server!)
-Scavenger hunts (super easy, just need items/clues and it could be a on going one. In order to move on to the next round you have to get the previous one)
-Dueling Club-I think there are several ways to do this.
-Classes- more interactive ones. this doesn't really go well in this list but I just wanted to make a point. I like classes but when I have been in school all day and I have to come to a lecture here to. Its a turn off for me.
-Wizard Chess Tournament- I know people like to play chess!
-Pokemon Monsters- okay, this make take a lot of work but we could have monsters that duel each other. Kind of like Wizard cards!

These are just a few I could think of off the top of my head. I don't know, I hope this helped a little bit. I should stop writing posts when I am tired.


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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 12:20 pm 
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I don't know a whole lot about the reasons here, as I've just returned. However! I want to say I'll be around a lot b/c there's something about this server that's always drawn me moreso than other places. I seriously thought it was turned off for whatever reason when I got back into nwn about a year ago, no idea why. Needless to say, I was thrilled to see people on when I checked NWN scry randomly.

I just wanted to make one tiny note, and it could be skewed observation as it's only been a couple days for me. I think maybe that people leave/log out b/c they aren't being engaged with in RP. And I know that's part of the RP. Being a shy person, quiet person, cool kid, whatever. So I'm not sure how to address it, but it's just a small note. And again, could be improper observation. And double again. . . I'll be here a lot. So if you wanna RP with me, I'm probably there.


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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 11:39 am 
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Yaay, the talk.

First off, I appreciate the chance for an open dialogue about these issues, that said, here's what I think on most of this.

To start, my play time is fairly limited throughout the week. Not to sound like a busy bunny or demeaning but I also like to spend my free time on different activities and friends.
So this usually comes around to about 2-3 hours of good RP time on a day.

I guess I am one of those people that login to check if there is any of the set people I play with are on, this is mostly for the above reason..
I'd love to be able to walk in and have awesome RP with a random stranger around the Basement or where they might be, however in most cases they are off in their own corner as well.
So for me, it can come down to a choice of instant gratification with some friends on a different game, or waiting around on the server to hopefully run into someone or such. Which In all my horribleness I guess I am tempted to go for the first.

Busy week schedule aside, I have TONS of great idea's for RP, and I'd love to compete in the current plot, and help move it along.
I'd love to have my own little character subplots, no matter how small and meaningless they might be to flavour things up.. However I feel like I'm just in the bad spot of being in the EU timezone, so effectively, I miss all major events and most GM interaction.

I know Necro has spend some time in the past to help develope some of the EU players their characters, so props for that one, I really appreciated that, but like I said I still get to miss all the major events.

I can relate to Chance his statement of feeling 'less' with characters, because there are PC's walking around who did get their special snowflake bonus.
And ofcourse they need to exist in moderation, because a school of werewolves/vampires/animagi/occlumentic/ect. would be silly, but some uniqueness does motivate you to play more.

All in all, I am very happy with the current main plot, it came in so out of the blue and was executed very well from day one.
The trying to piece together what happened from different interactions, much like an old point and click adventure or murder mystery.. It feels like such a shame to me that I haven't had a chance to be more involved in it.

I guess thats mostly what I have to say about it.

As to how to fix these kinds of issues..
I don't think the answer will quick, but I do think a good dialogue is a great start.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:31 pm 
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Ray wrote:
Yaay, the talk.

First off, I appreciate the chance for an open dialogue about these issues, that said, here's what I think on most of this.

To start, my play time is fairly limited throughout the week. Not to sound like a busy bunny or demeaning but I also like to spend my free time on different activities and friends.
So this usually comes around to about 2-3 hours of good RP time on a day.

I guess I am one of those people that login to check if there is any of the set people I play with are on, this is mostly for the above reason..
I'd love to be able to walk in and have awesome RP with a random stranger around the Basement or where they might be, however in most cases they are off in their own corner as well.
So for me, it can come down to a choice of instant gratification with some friends on a different game, or waiting around on the server to hopefully run into someone or such. Which In all my horribleness I guess I am tempted to go for the first.

I find myself in a similar predicament. "Hurry up and wait" may work for the military but it bores us Civies to tears. As for a fix, nothing really comes to mind.

Ray wrote:
Busy week schedule aside, I have TONS of great idea's for RP, and I'd love to compete in the current plot, and help move it along.
I'd love to have my own little character subplots, no matter how small and meaningless they might be to flavour things up.. However I feel like I'm just in the bad spot of being in the EU timezone, so effectively, I miss all major events and most GM interaction.

Yes, the new prime time has become kind of bizarre. Lately it starts anywhere from 10 to 12 EST. Which cuts my RP time rather short most nights. Again, not something that can really be helped. We each have our own busy schedules and we try to squeeze in what we can, when we can. :)

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Remember that for every person frustrated about the timing, there's another person thankful for it. There was a time when I missed everything because it started already and people took off and I logged in late to empty areas. :(

The only solution to this one unfortunately is to have more/different DMs on different time slots when there's enough players in those slots, hopefully without destroying other slots.

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Michael Draufy - Went to America to study native magical creatures. Still visits Anastasia.
Jade Celine - Married Peran and became a magical archaeologist.
Ana Celine - Took her revenge and vanished into the night.
Space Dog - Some say it still roams the halls of Hogwarts in search of petting.


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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:33 am 
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I'll chime in on a few of these. Honestly, a lot of these are absolutely and genuinely no-win situations, in its entirety. What I mean is you can have it one way, and it fixes some issues and breaks others. Change it back, and same thing. Fixes some things, breaks others. Other issues are simple limitations, others are honestly a failing of the DMs, and others are, in my opinion, squarely in the court of the players.

On the issue of party locations- there was a -ton- of metagaming going on. It was subtle to see, but the effects were absolutely there. What was happening is a debate in itself, so I won't derail the thread. It was also OOCly harmful too because as soon as people logged in and saw people were somewhere, they would OOCly "assume" they were unavailable for RP. People would also make assumptions about the RP going on based on location, and metagame it, even if genuinely unintentional. The ideal here is if you don't know where people are, you don't need party locations to find them. You need to ask where they are. There's nothing wrong with asking. The locations at a glance had turned into a destructive metagaming force on the server, and it was happening mostly subconsciously. I'd honestly very much prefer that people get into the habit of asking where people are, rather than turning party locations back on. You can ask ICly with an owl or other method, or OOCly if there is no reasonable IC way to ask. (i.e. your character just wouldn't do that, or w/e) All that said, I understand the opposition to this decision. It's one of those things that fixes and breaks things no matter which way the switch is flipped.

On the issue of "nothing to do..." This one has bothered me from day one. Until these last two months, I have arguably had among the least DM interaction with my PC out of anyone, with the one exception of LAM where Liss was included in events. I get darn near zero DM time, typically. That said, I -never- can say "there's nothing to do," unless there is literally no one on but me. And even then, if I'm available to RP, I stay logged in so that "no one's on" is no longer true, so someone else might log in. And I -try- to stay available, rather than fully AFKing. I'm not always as successful as I like, but I do try. This one is a particular pet peeve of mine, because I value PC-PC RP so much. Not only for myself, but when I am DMing I pull from everyone's PC-PC RP so deeply at times. When people do not RP without a DM, I have nothing to pull from for my DMing. The characters end up shallow and "2-dimensional." And this ties into the clique-RP. IC cliques are IC, and fine. However OOC cliques or RPing only with "someone you have RP with" not only cheats you out of RP that you may not have planned, but it also cheats everyone else out of your RP. When you're on the server, you're RPing with everyone logged in, not just your buddy. You all as a playerbase need to take charge of your characters' RP, and make it happen, without a DM pulling you along. No, I'm not saying at all that DM RP shouldn't happen, it absolutely should. I'm not saying DM RP isn't a valuable input to your character, it absolutely is. But your character is -yours.- I urge everyone to have enough respect for your -own- character to RP them not only with DMs, not only with people you currently have RP with, but with anyone and everyone. "Player list logging" is just -so- not cool. It harms your own character as much as robs everyone else of RP. Also, just because your character may be shy or whatever doesn't mean that you can't throw them into a situation and interact. A shy character doesn't mean your RP itself should be shy, even if you're RPing shy. (I hope that sentence made as much sense as it did in my head)

Another reason "nothing happens" is because instead of RPing people are on FaceBook, or another game, or watching TV, or otherwise distracted. Again please have more respect for your own character than that, not to mention the people around you. It allows your character to "check out" and stop thinking, and this absolutely will create a "forever bored" situation, ICly. Making "something happen" is absolutely possible, and permissible without a DM right there. I know I've beat this dead horse to death until it died, but sometimes I just feel like people don't want to believe me on this one. =/ RP is literally everyone's responsibility, PC and DM alike.

On the issue of "what to PC RP.." -Liss- has a few things she likes to do. Usually it involves rum. Not everyone's into that (even I'm not into it as much as Liss is, honestly what she likes bores me at times, but I'm staying IC). And you know what? You don't have to be into those things. Just because The Door, the beach, whatever, is what Liss and a few of the other socialites in her IC clique do, it doesn't mean those are your only options. I -suggest- attempts to be social, only because it allows the characters to mingle, which is good for character development. However it's not limited to that. Let your character decide what to do, instead of trying to decide for them. And don't allow your OOC mind or OOC limitations limit what your character may do. Obviously stay within the rules of the world around them, but don't shoot down your character's ideas based on what you think is an OOC limitation of NWN. Just RP it anyway. A good motto that used to float around the server a lot: "RP IT!" When in doubt, RP it. I can't even give examples, because -literally- your imagination (and the rules of the world) are the only limits.

On the issue of "hurry up and wait..." That's something that can unfortunately simply not be avoided. Even with more DMs that are active, the mere organization of so much going on simply takes time, and lots, and lots of communication on the parts of the DMs. All I can do is assure everyone that we are genuinely giving it our best possible effort to keep things moving along, because we really are. Personally I have had more RL than I can shake a stick at lately, and that hasn't helped. But we have no intention of this lasting anywhere near as long as LAM did. (It was 2 years, not one year.) But, similar to the last issue, if there are "hurry up and wait" situations happening, don't fill in the void time with FaceBook. Find other PCs, and RP. RP anything that's reasonable. But RP. Those times may not be the "fiction" that you're looking for, but they add the heart and soul into your character, and bring them to life so that there is something to draw from when the plot does make its way back to your character.

On the issue of time zones... we've tried hard to include as many people as we can, offering ways into the plot as often as we can, if your character has RPd to that end. Most events start now around the times when the characters who got themselves involved are online. If you want your character to be involved, you need to RP to that end. You -can- start with PC-PC RP. We as DMs pay as close attention to that as possible. You can also make IC requests, if your character would be doing so.

On the issue of RL being why you're not on: Yes many people are just busy. =/ I'm one of them, lately. So we all understand. RL comes first. Please don't let WoHP assist in the failing of classes.

On the issue of classes and such tapering off: Yes, we agree. We're trying hard to recover the former amount of classes and events and possessions. And I -personally- don't like plots to only have "downers" and have no good times. I will admit that this is largely a factor of us simply trying to stay afloat, trying to keep things moving along, and not having much time to stop and breathe. But I will take this concern into account for sure, because I personally strongly agree.

On the issue of DM availability/approachability: I've already talked to a player in particular and decided that I do intend on turning the DM login notification back on, as a test. The reason it's off is two-fold. First, DMs usually log in knowing exactly what we're going to be doing. That is, we log in already busy. Getting slammed by players is often really overwhelming. I'm not saying I don't understand or appreciate that players need things, I'm just saying it can very easily and quickly overwhelm us. And it's not fair to YOU as players to say "Don't contact us when we log in." What we generally do instead is log in and try to check people/things off our list in an orderly manner so we don't get overwhelmed, and still try to hit everything we need to do. Also, the other reason is people behave differently (IC) when a DM logs in. It's not -so- much of an issue any more, as I think the playerbase has seriously matured in the last several years. Because of that, I have considered turning the notification back on as a test. This too is one of those "fix and break" things. It's a give and take.

One last thing: I'd like to -thank- everyone for keeping such a thread as this -civil-. I know some people have said that the DMs can be intimidating, and feel unapprochable. However, honestly, I often feel the same in reverse. We do what we can to make things work, and with every decision we make some people are happy and others aren't. Unfortuantely it's just how this gig works. It's very hard for me in particular to open discussions like this up to the public, only because of how horribly they have gone in the past. So badly have they gone in the past, that I've literally had to hide the threads out of pure embarrassment that a new player might run across the thread. So again thank you all for voicing concerns in a civil manner, so that they can be addressed. It doesn't mean we'll all agree with everything, but I do swear to you that I at least listen, and I -can- be swayed at times. It has happened!

Something I've wanted to do, like, forever: I have wanted to have server-wide "Role Play discussion meetings." OOC discussions on the server, everyone's invited. My hope is to actually discuss RP itself, sort of like a club meeting for people who love Role Play simply to discuss the art, and hopefully learn from each other. But I think that server-specific issues could also be hashed out a little as well during something like that. Of course as always, the biggest issue is time zones. Even so, is that something that people would like to see start happening?

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Kalara Crest, Hufflepuff
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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:49 am 
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I'm just popping in because I'm one of those MIA DMs and I feel really bad about that. RL has been hectic lately and there's barely been time to talk to any of you guys OOCly let alone RP. As soon as things start to cool down I'll be back regularly. So, again, I apologize and I miss you guys!

Just a tid-bit to add, though: I don't have time to RP Drusilla right now, but you don't always need the game to RP your PC. As odd as it may sound (at first) I RP Drusilla in my mind occasionally. I could be in Wal-Mart and kinda zone out and just think and RP what Drusilla is doing entirely mentally; or lying in bed and just completely zone into Drusilla. This can help get you in the mindset of your PC and give you the urge to RP them. If you can do this (which is just another form of solo-RP which I believe Calan was hitting on) then you should have no problem RPing by yourself on the server. Like Necro said, you could hop on, RP with someone your PC doesn't know/hates and end up creating a lot of RP. The same thing goes for solo-RP. Drusilla could be making a potion and another PC could ask what it is, it's really that simple, but it all starts by just roleplaying, even if its by yourself!

But, yeah, not all RP has to be pleasant and not all RP has to be high octane. You don't want to RP with Drusilla because you don't know her, or me? Well, yeah, it might be awkward at first but it could end up being really fun! Some of my best RP on the server has been unplanned with people who I didn't originally know. If anything, I'd really honestly have to say that RP deteriorates after becoming too friendly OOCly (but you guys rule, so whatever)! A prime example is Drusilla and Lucille (and I can only use my own examples, so I'm sorry if I seem biased; but seriously, this kinda stuff happens with everyone who tries) - it seriously all started because Lucille kept hugging Drusilla. It's a two minute emote, nothing extravagant or even particularly entertaining. From that simple "boring" attempt at RP it had long term effects that shaped a lot of great RP: they went from unknown, to enemies, to bestfriends, to girlfriends.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:53 am 
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Going slightly off topic here...
Here's a nice book that may or may not be useful for current and or up and coming DMs (works great for players too).

I personally own the the 3rd edition copy and it has helped me discover some of my faults RPing as a player and as a DM and helped me in correcting some of those faults. Just a friendly notice since this appears to be a thread on stepping up our RP game.


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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:04 am 
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I also wanted to add a bit about some amazing RP I had way back when when Hogwarts was still standing that has to do with the, "well, there's nothing to do" topic. I was actually debating getting on one night. I was tired, and I assumed that with the people that were on the player list, I wasn't going to be getting a ton of RP that night. I got on, sucked it up, and put Cray into a conversation in the Entrance Hall with a few of his friends, a couple of which logged in AFTER me. They just started talking, and before I knew it, Cray became the most idiotic person alive, and ending up standing in front of Kell while she threw knives at him. It lead to him nearly bleeding out, and a group of people in the HW for a few RL hours. This RP was -never- something I would have expected that day. I was iffy about even getting ON that day. But that turned out to be an -amazing- night of RP, ended up giving RP to a lot of people, and it definitely shaped Cray into the person he is now.

That RP was extremely important, and 1) no DMs were involved on client. To make things happen, a DM does NOT have to be present. And like Chris said, the sky is the limit. Don't be afraid to allow your characters to do stupid stuff IF they would do it. 2) Some people that were involved that day got on after I was on. I know this topic has been beaten to death multiple times, and I'm pretty sure you guys have the point, but -don't- wait for people to get on. Go out and RP! To wait for other people to get on is robbing yourself of so much time and development your character has to offer.

Have your character express how much they are bored in the tent. "I'm so bored," can lead to conversation, or something happening. If you just sit there and not engage in that seemingly insignificant RP, then your character is just sitting, staring at a wall. Is he or she bored? What is he or she thinking about? One thing I sometimes do when I'm not able to RP with someone (whether that be no one at all is on, or Cray is just being super anti-social), is that I send Tells to myself to show his thought process. Something could be brought up IC that reminds Cray of a touchy subject. I'll send myself a Tell to give myself -exactly- what he's thinking, why he's thinking it, and then emote any kind of reaction he actually gives to the thought. Those little things can REALLY give you insight to your character's development, gives you something to do, and gets other characters involved. If he's being anti-social, I can do the same thing. Sometimes I even open up a writing program and write what he's doing. A person can log in while you're doing that, and then you have something that they are doing instead of just sitting there, reading a book or staring at a wall.

You also never ever ever know what's going to happen with the RPers you don't normally RP with. They could be crazy psychos like Dru, hiding beneath a layer of bunny rabbits, and you wouldn't even know unless you engaged in RP with them. Like Dru said, a 2 minute emote can do a -lot- over time. Heck, your character AVOIDING someone is really valuable. Just make sure to RP it!! That can create enemies for your character, that can create friends for your character... That creates drama, which is always fun to RP. If you don't rp it though, and you yourself avoid RPing with that person, then it can very very easily become OOC. That can create tension between players, even if completely unintentional. We are all very mature, I think, so if your character is going to be mean to someone else, just RP it. IC is IC. But it's -very- important to do so if that's what would happen IC.

My point is don't wait for DMs to do stuff, and RP the truest you can to your character. DMs are important to keep things moving, but the PCs are the life. In lots of our eyes, we think of our characters as real people. So don't allow them to become "2-dimensional." Allow them to think, allow them to express themselves, and that in itself will give you, as a RPer, something to do.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:13 am 
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I'd like to thank everybody who's been posting here, it helps me get some perspective too.

I would absolutely attend Calan's idea for "server RP meetings" and help however I can, because this place is important to me and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be interested. I think something like that could go a long way towards making DMs seem less scary at first, too - players could sit in on these and just listen or participate as desired, and maybe get closer that way! This could also be a great way for all of us, player and DM alike, to get a sense of what each other are looking for.

I also completely agree with the thought that staying IC is important. The extended solo-RP thing isn't for everyone - generally I don't type anything while I don't think there's anyone around to read it, but that doesn't mean I'm not still in my character's head thinking about what kinds of things she might be doing, and if there's other characters around I'm trying to get better at making sure I at least do something visible for them, something so they can jump in if desired. I'm also trying to improve at sending out those "can we RP" tells to appropriate people when there's nothing going on.
Private RP is also important for characters, and if you have a particular IC friend etc, it's totally okay to spend time alone with them here and there. I know my PC would feel very lost without it. But not to the exclusion of everything else! For that reason, character traits sometimes need to be tweaked to allow for more RP... Jade gets very antsy if she hasn't talked to anybody besides Peran for a while.

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Corinne Beckett - Inherited flower shop and eventually relocated to Diagon Alley.
Michael Draufy - Went to America to study native magical creatures. Still visits Anastasia.
Jade Celine - Married Peran and became a magical archaeologist.
Ana Celine - Took her revenge and vanished into the night.
Space Dog - Some say it still roams the halls of Hogwarts in search of petting.


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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:38 am 
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Calan wrote:
On the issue of party locations- there was a -ton- of metagaming going on. It was subtle to see, but the effects were absolutely there. What was happening is a debate in itself, so I won't derail the thread. It was also OOCly harmful too because as soon as people logged in and saw people were somewhere, they would OOCly "assume" they were unavailable for RP. People would also make assumptions about the RP going on based on location, and metagame it, even if genuinely unintentional. The ideal here is if you don't know where people are, you don't need party locations to find them. You need to ask where they are. There's nothing wrong with asking. The locations at a glance had turned into a destructive metagaming force on the server, and it was happening mostly subconsciously. I'd honestly very much prefer that people get into the habit of asking where people are, rather than turning party locations back on. You can ask ICly with an owl or other method, or OOCly if there is no reasonable IC way to ask. (i.e. your character just wouldn't do that, or w/e) All that said, I understand the opposition to this decision. It's one of those things that fixes and breaks things no matter which way the switch is flipped.


People are assuming others aren't available for RP anyway, because they aren't around and you don't know where they are. And if you ask where someone is then you can metagame the answer anyway if you're that desperate to metagame. To be honest, I'm not even sure how you could metagame in any destructive way. If people can't see who's on in the log in screen they log in and then log off again too. People who want to metagame will always find a way around the restrictions. I think that you just need to scrap the restrictions in favour of those who aren't metagaming and ignore the people who abuse things. They're the reason we can't have nice things, damn it lol.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:02 am 
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Charity wrote:
People are assuming others aren't available for RP anyway, because they aren't around and you don't know where they are. And if you ask where someone is then you can metagame the answer anyway if you're that desperate to metagame. To be honest, I'm not even sure how you could metagame in any destructive way. If people can't see who's on in the log in screen they log in and then log off again too. People who want to metagame will always find a way around the restrictions. I think that you just need to scrap the restrictions in favour of those who aren't metagaming and ignore the people who abuse things. They're the reason we can't have nice things, damn it lol.


First of all, there are a million ways to metagame destructively. Plain and simple.

Secondly, with everything that is currently implemented there is absolutely no way to metagame for any Player without the other Player blatantly assisting them to do so.

Lastly, with how low yet close our Playerbase has become - It's probably all easier, politer, and more social-able to simply send a tell asking if they want to Roleplay. A simply tell is more respectful than barging in because you want Roleplay (but maybe they don't), it is easier than bringing back the old system and risking metagaming, and will get people who don't normally talk to each other to socialize a bit more. When two people who never talk to each other are stuck alone on the server, they can either sit there bored, or say Hello.

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People are assuming others aren't available for RP anyway, because they aren't around and you don't know where they are.


Above it all, Charity, if you logged on you'd know that the entire server pretty much sticks to the Basement and the Hogwarts Tent.

Since the DMs are letting the Players vent, it's only respectful to let the DMs do the same. And if there is one thing that's frustrating above all else, it's when Players express concern about something they've seen from their single log-in, on one day of the entire month, and aren't logging in regularly to justify this concern.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:33 pm 
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I did try to explain earlier that the forms of metagaming that are going on are deeper and more subtle (on the surface) than simply going to where someone is. It's an OOC knowledge that starts seeping into RP, and it's done subconsciously, and unintentionally. But I have seen the effects of it, they are real, and they are much more massive than you may think. The fact that people obviously rely so much on this OOC information only serves to prove how much it is actually used. And frankly, it's OOC information that shouldn't be readily available- it just -has- been.

In the past, server-wide parties were nearly banned by policy. I mean the DMs would get on and -tell- the server to break up the server party. There are so many reasons for this. I personally shyed away from that especially in the later years because I also want the players to be able to spend time together OOCly as well as ICly. Unfortuantely, since party locations have been turned off, no one seems to have much of a use for party any more. That again tells me that the real reason to be in a party is simply to get that OOC information of where others are.

"/p Hey, where is everyone? Anything going on that my character would know about?" is simple, quick, and it works. Some people won't say, and some people might. But like Squirrel pointed out, including the person in the loop is important for a multitude of reasons which go a lot deeper than simply moving to where someone is. If you know where someone is, then you know who they are with. Your brain starts to piece things together, and then before you know it, you have a lot more information than simply where they were. You now know where they were, when, why, who they were with, and how it plays a role in other RP that is going on around that character. Party locations tell people -massive- amounts of information about RP. It's much, much more than simply a location. And as much as I genuinely believe that people don't meta that information intentionally, it still -does- get metagamed. It's also just so anti-FOIC and detracts from RP when you have that much OOC knowledge.

I'm honestly still only touching the surface on why I think server-wide knowledge of locations is destructive to RP. I think it could fill a thread of its own on debate about why it's bad and why it's good. However rather than taking party away from everyone, I wanted to simply remove the location information so that people could still hang out OOCly. I'm a little disturbed that the result as been nearly no party at all, that just tells me that locations have been overly relied on, and abused. I suppose it's the habit of "assumption" that's been abused, because like you said Charity, people are still just assuming others aren't available. I think that would be a good habit to break. It's rooted in OOC, not IC. Your character has no idea what others are up to, so they would send a message regardless. If they wouldn't or can't, send a tell. Or if you are in a party, shoot out a question to party. Assuming is bad, with or without party locations.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 11:49 pm 
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Necromancer367 wrote:
Since the DMs are letting the Players vent, it's only respectful to let the DMs do the same. And if there is one thing that's frustrating above all else, it's when Players express concern about something they've seen from their single log-in, on one day of the entire month, and aren't logging in regularly to justify this concern.


I'm not stopping the DMs from venting as well. And unfortunately I still suffer from the noone is on or comes on while I sit there cause everyone else is in bed problem. I have been on.

I guess I also suffer from no IC reason to send someone a tell asking where they are, because my character doesn't know them. Penalty of playing a first year, I guess.

I didn't realise that the party thing was so complicated. I'm too lazy to put in the effort to metagame lol. I still don't really understand what's so destructive about knowing where people are, but I'll presume I'm missing something.

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 Post subject: Re: For The Players: Lets Have A Talk
 Post Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:04 am 
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Charity wrote:
I guess I also suffer from no IC reason to send someone a tell asking where they are, because my character doesn't know them. Penalty of playing a first year, I guess.

I didn't realise that the party thing was so complicated. I'm too lazy to put in the effort to metagame lol. I still don't really understand what's so destructive about knowing where people are, but I'll presume I'm missing something.


Well, at the moment everyone can pretty much put their money on the bulk of players being in Diagon, the Hogwarts tent or the basement. If they aren't in one of those places, they're either having private time with another player (or just with the PC being in a bad mood, needing to get away from it all, or doing some therapy shopping, whatever) or are semi-AFK/completely AFK. This (in my experience) has applied to when the server was based in Hogwarts as well - people are either lingering in the Entrance Hall, Great Hall or class, all of which just require your PC to walk to those areas and see. If they aren't there, they're doing one of the above (private time, etc). I was one of the biggest location metagamers in the world and since the party locations were removed I've had no problem finding anyone - and if Drusilla wants to talk to someone particularly, she can send a note asking where they are and what they're doing.

I kind of think this whole thing, to particularly nosey PCs, could open up gates to special magic to find out the locations of people (with DM approval, of course), which could potentially lead to even MORE roleplay. Just saying! ;)

I basically just look at it from an entirely IC perspective - Does Drusilla -really- care where player X and Y are at? No, she doesn't. I do because I'm curious/newsy and it inevitably leads to RP that my PC really wouldn't even engage in because she was about 60 miles away doing something completely different (and I get bored) from where the players are and just happens to go to them for no particular reason whatsoever, when I (and she) already knew they were in the EH, basement, whatever. It would be more natural for Drusilla to finish what she's doing and go roam around to look for her friends or someone to pick on and this makes that way easier to stick to IC.

You're not really missing anything, I think you may just be interpreting it wrong. The point wasn't to segregate PCs out and make it more difficult to achieve RP - it's to make it easier to stick to your character without OOC influence taking over. It can affect your RP without you realizing, too, because you digest what you know OOCly and it may sit in your subconscious for awhile, and then all of the sudden your PC has an 'inkling' about something that s/he really would have no idea about. Here's a prime example: Way back when, my PC's boyfriend was cheating on his IC GF. Because of party, she found out. Otherwise, she'd have had NO idea and even though all parties involved were fantastic roleplayers it inevitably came out ICly due to OOC knowledge and influence over the PCs. There was suspicion that, based on the RP, would have never been there if the player didn't see our consistent party locations being together. It can be particularly difficult to RP things that effect your PC directly when you know OOCly they're being duped. It's natural to have an attachment to your PC, and it's natural to want to protect them to a degree; and no matter how good of roleplayer you are, chances are that at some point, you'll incorporate OOC knowledge into the IC world, even if innocently and accidentally. Heck, I've had to re-RP things from scratch and send a few tells in the past myself because I wasn't sure if my PC knew it, or if I knew it.

But I digress! It's just harmful to know exactly where PCs are, which can lead into knowing what they're doing, who they're with, who is going to get in trouble, who is in trouble, etc. It really can harm RP in the long term, damage story lines, make things 100% more complicated, etc.

Everyone here is friendly - I don't think anyone would be adverse to you sending them a tell asking if they'd like to bump PCs into each other (even if you don't know the PC or the player). They'll either be busy and say no, or they'll be bored as well and say 'sure' and you two can meander into a common place and see where it goes from there (of course, I'd recommend going somewhere the PCs would go naturally anyway. If your firstie wouldn't meet up with the 'bad kids' in Knockturn or The Green Door, then you really shouldn't go there - try somewhere neutral, where both parties would be anyway, like the basement). Anyways, my character always hung out with a small group of people. Since the locations were removed and I can't just have Drusilla waltz over to their location, she has started interacting with people who she wouldn't have in the past (more RP). Until she decides to make the effort to communicate via letter with her buddies she'll just have to deal. The PCs your PC are friends with don't even need to be online - you can send an IC forum PM, or whatever, and arrange to meet IG at such and such a place based on the letters. :)

In the end, there is nothing damaging about party locations being removed. The only point of party (should be) that we get to talk to each other OOCly because we're friends. Party is OOC, so everything gathered from party should be OOC and nothing IC. The locations of players are IC, and should not be known at all through OOC mediums. It makes your character work a little harder, and it's all about the RP, right? :) Maybe instead of being bored, nothing to do, your PC could send her/his owl out to random names that s/he happens to remember from class or just around the basement asking if they're okay after the disaster, what they've been up to, if they'd like to go for tea, want to sneak out of the basement and go have a little fun, or something! Stuff that, in the past, never really happened because we all knew exactly what everyone was doing based on the locations. I see Liss and Angel alone in some house? Dru isn't going to write them a letter; why? Because OOCly, I don't want to bother them or disrupt RP. ICly, Dru doesn't know what they're doing, where they are, and she doesn't care in the slightest about interrupting people, so she'd send that letter regardless of if they're having a moment or not. Now, no OOC influence can take over her RP. No OOC qualms about interrupting or distracting people can take over RP. Nothing can take over RP, because your PC doesn't know anything about that player, what they're doing, who they're with, where they are, etc. So, you're going to have to RP more, and RP is fun and good! If your PC is antisocial and doesn't want any friends and just wants to be alone, then locations STILL don't matter.

There isn't really any benefit that I can think of to keeping locations. You and your bestfriend want to RP? Send a letter IC. You and your bestfriend don't know each other ICly yet, but really want to RP? Send a tell arranging a public place where they'd go anyway to meet. You don't know anyone? Poke around the most common places, and if there is no-one there send a message in party asking if anyone's up for some RP. Someone will bite! And in the interim, PCs who are doing something extremely secret that no-one should know about whatsoever don't need to leave party/chat to engage in their RP for fear that someone is going to happen upon them or start asking questions.

@EU timezone problem:

I live on the East Coast and most of the events happen when I'm in bed (til I can convince everyone to move here) so I kind of miss out on them a lot too. If there's a particular PC you want to engage with, try to set something up when both of you can be around. If there's an event you want a piece in, send a message to the head DM of that plot asking if there's anyway at all they could recap what happened because your PC would have been there; you may not get to enjoy the live RP of that event, but you can certainly RP the aftermath, which in the latest plot has been crazy fun. When Necro did an event once that I wasn't around for (neither were you, Ray) he re-did the entire thing a second time so that we could all partake in a random side-effect from the cold our PCs got. That may not work well for main events, but for side little fun stuff I think having two rounds would be just fine in most cases.

I wouldn't particularly mind, and I don't think anyone else would, if an EU player arranged cool little things for the EU players to do together - just run your idea by a DM first. As long as it isn't super crazy and server-altering, none of us should need to be there and you can make little quests and all to drag people into. :) Maybe the EU player's PCs could all go on a terror tour together, or spend a day out and about, arrange parties, go on a treasure hunt, find some old book and try to decipher it, look for UFOs, or anything really. If it is super crazy, just try to get a DM involved who is as close to your timezone as possible. None of us want to harm RP, we're here to facilitate it. If certain concessions need to be made I'm sure things could be worked out (recapping RP through PMs for a DM to track, a DM staying up late to be there once in awhile when needed, maybe even assigning a single player to take a lead on a particular little side-thing they're doing).

But anyway, please don't feel discouraged because you aren't in a compatible time zone. We want you to have as much fun as everyone else and we'll figure out a way to make that happen. :)

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